Slappy bedded foes -- The Imus Debacle

[Bill_Thompson]

I think Imus should get 14 years in a maximum security prison for his remarks. That way any cracker will think twice before he disrespects a sister.

[Lance]

It figures you'd over-react, you Nappy Headed Ho.

[Bill_Thompson]

On the other hand, there might be a back-lash. Nazis are given free speech rights and even police escort and protection at rallies. What they have to say is pretty tame compared to what Imus said. So what happens when people get sick of all the Political Correctness and start thinking that brother Jackson and Sharpton have gone too far?

[Мастер]

Nazis are given free speech rights

So is Don Imus.

[Lonewulf]

On the other hand, there might be a back-lash. Nazis are given free speech rights and even police escort and protection at rallies. What they have to say is pretty tame compared to what Imus said.

How are Neo-Nazis (and the KKK, I'd add, simply because they're also protected) "tame" compared to what Imus said?

Nappy-headed hos? Is that really race discrimination? Meh, that's a pretty mild thing compared to the statement that Jews are filthy animals that are a detriment to society, and that niggers deserve a good hanging.

It figures you'd over-react, you Nappy Headed Ho.

Lance, I want your expert opinion, since you actually know Bill:

Is he using satire/parody here?

[hippietrekx]

LW, while I don't know Bill, by careful observation of other posts, I deem this satire.

And I just don't get why everyone's so upset. I mean, rappers use words like "ho, cunt, bitch" in their songs in reference to women, and they aren't being fired. Heck, on the national news tonight one of the girls on the team said "This isn't about us, it's about all women." So, you get pissed and attack people who jokingly call you a ho, but not at those rappers (among other people) who glorify the lowness of women?

I'm confused. And apparently not a feminazi...

[Lonewulf]

And I just don't get why everyone's so upset. I mean, rappers use words like "ho, cunt, bitch" in their songs in reference to women, and they aren't being fired.

No, but they don't quite harvest a lot of respect in the mind of the general public, outside of actual fans of rap music.

Heck, on the national news tonight one of the girls on the team said "This isn't about us, it's about all women." So, you get pissed and attack people who jokingly call you a ho, but not at those rappers (among other people) who glorify the lowness of women?

As I mentioned above, rappers don't glean any actual respect out of their work except for those that either don't care about the "ho-slapping", or by those that just like the music. A radio personality is held up to higher standards, usually. That's why Limbaugh is considered a joke.

What I don't get is why it's made out to be an issue of racism. I don't quite take his comments as racist, personally. I don't quite see where they came from, though? I mean, why exactly did he insult these women?

[Enzo]

It is almost like a magical incantation or a powerful amulet. When the lowest common denominator in society stirs, it brings forth... Bill Thompson.


Imus gets free speech, says something that offends many. people who pay Imus don't want many getting offended on their dime. They sanction Imus. The offended speak their reactions.

Free speech and marketplace in action.

[Lance]

Lance, I want your expert opinion, since you actually know Bill:

Is he using satire/parody here?

Bill and I have only actually met twice, and briefly at that. I have no insight into his motivation beyond what I know from here.

[Lonewulf]

Bill and I have only actually met twice, and briefly at that. I have no insight into his motivation beyond what I know from here.

True.

It's like the legally blind leading the fully blind.

Imus gets free speech, says something that offends many. people who pay Imus don't want many getting offended on their dime. They sanction Imus. The offended speak their reactions.

Free speech and marketplace in action.

Indeed.

Though from what I've heard, his radio show is very gratuitous on the insults. It sounds like he's trying hard to do the same comedic style as Maddox. Unfortunately, Maddox's style, while popular in this age, is also hard to emulate correctly; there are lines that are sometimes hard to see that you should not cross. Maddox may cross these lines for many people, but he also mocks himself and (for me, at least) is hard to take truly seriously. But there's a difference of crassness between "Maddox Crass" (which has style) to "Just plain Crass" (which lacks style).

But I'm still curious. What reason did Imus have for insulting these women? Was it just done for gratuitous attention, and that his routine is to randomly insult people?

I'd like to hear or read (preferably) the full excerpt, honestly, without editing.

[Bill_Thompson]

On the other hand, there might be a back-lash. Nazis are given free speech rights and even police escort and protection at rallies. What they have to say is pretty tame compared to what Imus said.

How are Neo-Nazis (and the KKK, I'd add, simply because they're also protected) "tame" compared to what Imus said?

There are "Pimp and Ho" parties all the time. It is part of our culture. Nazis are outside the norm. Someone showing up at a costume party as a Nazi would not be part of the main stream.

[Lonewulf]

There are "Pimp and Ho" parties all the time. It is part of our culture. Nazis are outside the norm. Someone showing up at a costume party as a Nazi would not be part of the main stream.

Not sure I get your point here.

However, do you have any evidence that "pimp and ho" parties are truly mainstream, and not just conducted by a small percentage of the population?

And how, exactly, does this change the Nazi or KKK message, exactly?

[Bill_Thompson]

Nazis are given free speech rights

So is Don Imus.

Only, it seems, after he goes around and grovels at the feet of Sharpton and Jessie Jackson. Otherwise he gets fired and becomes jobless.

[Bill_Thompson]

There are "Pimp and Ho" parties all the time. It is part of our culture. Nazis are outside the norm. Someone showing up at a costume party as a Nazi would not be part of the main stream.

...And?

This doesn't change the message.

I think so. If a brother said these things it would be blown off.

[Lonewulf]

Only, it seems, after he goes around and grovels at the feet of Sharpton and Jessie Jackson. Otherwise he gets fired and becomes jobless.

So if I call my boss an asstard to his face, I shouldn't be fired?

[Lonewulf]

I think so. If a brother said these things it would be blown off.

If he was a radio personality that set himself to portray a message? I'm skeptical of that claim.

Though tell me, Bill: What did these girls do to deserve the insult?

[Lonewulf]

Some interesting things about Don Imus that I learned recently:

1) He has a history of racism. He's even gone so far as to call blacks "apes", showing true racism right there. This goes beyond a simple statement of "nappy-headed hos".

2) According to Wikipedia:

Imus and his crew, Charles McCord and Bernard McGuirk, have been accused of racism, misogyny, and homophobia. Imus referred to sports columnist Bill Rhoden as a "New York Times quota hire" and PBS anchor Gwen Ifill as a "cleaning lady" over twenty years ago.[5] Imus has repeatedly referred to Arabs as "ragheads."[6] He has berated many female newsreaders, most recently Contessa Brewer, which caused her to leave the show. After she left the show, Imus went on a tirade, saying, “With that fat ass she’s got, she wouldn’t be one of ‘em,” (a beautiful woman). Imus said on the air, "That skank has to spend three hours with makeup in the morning." The tirade was also tied to comments that were overheard of Contessa's calling Imus “a cantankerous old fool” at a dinner in a restaurant in 2005, when she was still newsreader.[7]

During Imus's show a producer also poked fun of poet Maya Angelou.

Also, Libel and Slander are not covered under the First Amendment, nor is it considered "Free Speech". Yet...

Imus also attracted public attention due to two recent lawsuits. On November 29, 2004 a former nanny, Nichole Mallette, sued Imus for wrongful termination and defamation[11] after a Thanksgiving 2003 incident in which she was allegedly fired and escorted off Imus Ranch property at 4:15 AM. Don and Deirdre Imus were allegedly upset over Mallette's possession of a cap-gun and pocket knife on ranch property.

On July 8, 2005 Dr. Howard Allen Pearson sued Imus for slander and civil assault. Imus allegedly threatened Dr. Pearson during a July 13, 2004 confrontation at the ranch, and subsequently referred to him on air as "an arrogant (expletive) doctor who doesn't mind letting a child suffer".[12]

He took things even a step further, calling a basketball team a bunch of "nappy-headed hos". The NAACP and NOW worked to get him fired, and then Don Imus issued an apology for his un-called for insult.

But I'm sure if he was a Liberal, you'd be trying to tear him down, Bill. You think like that still, don't you? :)

On April 9, Imus appeared on Al Sharpton's syndicated radio talk show to address the Rutgers controversy. Sharpton called the comments "abominable", "racist", and "sexist" and repeated his earlier demand that Imus be fired. Imus said, "Our agenda is to be funny and sometimes we go too far. And this time we went way too far. Here's what I've learned: that you can't make fun of everybody, because some people don't deserve it."[18]

Some people don't deserve it, and the job that he worked for specifically has a policy against "going too far". So... what's the big deal? The government should prevent working places from ever being able to fire people because of random insults he flings at people?

I'm not sure I want to live in that world in your head, Bill.

One last thing:

Chicago Tribune columnist Clarence Page, who once had Imus take a pledge not to engage in racist talk, said of the Imus' two-week suspension, "This sends a very bad signal and it's a bad use of the public airwaves. And, frankly, I don't think it's even fair to other shock jocks who've lost their jobs over doing a lot less." In contrast, CBS board member and former NAACP president Bruce Gordon said that Imus should not be allowed to come back even after the suspension, claiming that his remarks "crossed the line, a very bright line that divides our country."

(bolding mine) Apparently, Imus made a pledge to not engage in racist talk.

Final nail in the coffin. This thread can suck it now, for all I care, 'cause I call quid pro quo.

[hippietrekx]

From what I heard on the air, he was laughing while he was saying it and it was preceeded by a comment about their tattoos (perhaps starting the insults?).

I've heard Imus on MSNBC in the morning before, and I think he's a jerk, but aren't most people? Meh, I don't know, he's probably just saying stuff lots of other bigots say. He just happens to be on the air. Since so many people listen, he shouldn't get off scot-free, but he should lose his job, either.

I guess I just don't know why people get so worked up at name-calling. "Oh, you called me a bad name, I'm gonna go cry now." Hell, I was called a "Slut 3000" (for no apparent reason & completely out of the blue) by a classmate who meant it to be upsetting and I started to laugh my ass off because it had such a high level of untrue-ness. I don't think the Reutgers Girls are "hoes" and they have very nice hair for the most part.

*shrug* People in general don't make sense to me. I'll leave the psychology to someone else.

--hippie, not a people-person

[Мастер]

Hell, I was called a "Slut 3000"

Excuse me, I have to go use the rank administration control panel

[Dragon Star]

Hell, I was called a "Slut 3000"

Excuse me, I have to go use the rank administration control panel

The temptation is amazing.

[Lonewulf]

From what I heard on the air, he was laughing while he was saying it and it was preceeded by a comment about their tattoos (perhaps starting the insults?).

I've heard Imus on MSNBC in the morning before, and I think he's a jerk, but aren't most people? Meh, I don't know, he's probably just saying stuff lots of other bigots say. He just happens to be on the air. Since so many people listen, he shouldn't get off scot-free, but he should lose his job, either.

I assume you meant "shouldn't". And as far as I know, he actually didn't lose his job. He personally met up with the girls, I think, who got to say their piece about how they found his speech hurtful. He worked hard to apologize for his actions, expressing guilt over what he said, and explaining that he went a step too far.

As far as I'm concerned, that's where it should end. He apologized, he's learned his lesson, the girls move on, everyone's happy.

Though the claim that one of the girls was "scarred for life" (heard this from my U.S. Government instructor, who was VERY emotional over this issue) is just going a tad overboard.

The head of NAACP, however, wants him to be fired, I think for some other things he said. I don't think that the NOW or NAACP would come out of nowhere over one comment on a single person; I think that he's said several things, and this time it just went too far.

I guess I just don't know why people get so worked up at name-calling. "Oh, you called me a bad name, I'm gonna go cry now." Hell, I was called a "Slut 3000" (for no apparent reason & completely out of the blue) by a classmate who meant it to be upsetting and I started to laugh my ass off because it had such a high level of untrue-ness.

There's a key difference between being insulted by some random person in a classroom, and being insulted on the air by someone you don't know and have never met, to people that you will never meet, possibly hundreds of thousands to millions.

[Lonewulf]

One note for Thompson (though I doubt he'll pay much heed), talking about how blacks can insult blacks, whereas whites cannot insult blacks (I posted this on the JREF forum, at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php? ... ost2512084):


I don't see why people see such a contradiction.

If I insult you based on your skin tone, and I share that skin tone, at the worst I'm participating in self-mockery. There's an obvious reason that this is not considered racist, and anyone with half a brain can see it.

If I'm white and you're black and I call you a "nigga", though, that's totally a different scenario, unless I've somehow identified myself to you as a friend, and that I mean it in jest.

Sometimes a white man and a black man can sit together in harmony calling each other "nigga" and "honky" all day long and not get insulted (though they might "act" insulted and insult back), but they're friends. They know it's not meant as an insult, and they know the person involved.

If a white man talked about, "All them niggers", then the word fundamentally changes meaning as the context changes.

This is perfectly logical. I don't see why people don't realize this very simple fact.

[Enzo]

So to you it is OK for people to use words that would otherwise be offensive to each other as long as they know the intent is not malicious.

ANd yet when the word gay is the one being measured by the intent, it is completely the opposite. How odd.


On other angles.

Only, it seems, after he goes around and grovels at the feet of Sharpton and Jessie Jackson. Otherwise he gets fired and becomes jobless.

Free speech means the government doesn't stop you from speaking your mind. Free speech is not an immunity card giving you carte blanche to say anything you want and face no repercussions. Imus is free to express himself as he sees fit on his own time. Radio is the advertising business, and if the remarks Imus makes impedes their ability to sell their products, the advertisers are free to pull their ads. Likewise the broadcaster is free to fire him for undermining their efforts.

A waiter is free to tell the patrons that the food here sucks, don't eat it, and the restauranteur is free to fire him for it.

He apologized, he's learned his lesson, the girls move on, everyone's happy.

What evidence do we have of that? Past examples of his behavior and apology show different. Claiming to learn a lesson is not the same as learning it. He can pledge all he wants. I'll believe it when I see it.


I've watched the clip, when he was talking about them, the photo came up and he reacted like Whoa, those are some rough looking women. "They even have tatoos." And went on from there vamping on their appearance. I didn't think he was being overtly hostile, I think he was just being boorish, being the asshole he is. I think he was responding to the visual image, it could have been some unknown team from Australia. I did not get the idea he wanted to insult these women in particular, so why did he insult them as a question is to me moot.

I am not defending him. I don't care for him, his show is like watching paint dry, and what he passes off as clever is to me pathetic. But to be fair, I don't think who the women were or what they had done entered into the thought process. That he thought such remarks were amusing is stunning. And it is very sad that he rained on their parade in such a huge way.

[Lonewulf]

So to you it is OK for people to use words that would otherwise be offensive to each other as long as they know the intent is not malicious.

ANd yet when the word gay is the one being measured by the intent, it is completely the opposite. How odd.

Stop being black, Enzo.

(Black means "stupid", by the way).

The fact that you see this as a contradiction tells me that you either misunderstood my thought process when it came to "gay", or you just simply want to tear me down because that's the cool thing to do. I can go either way.

If a homosexual says to another homosexual, "Oh, you stupid gay man!" as a joke, I don't have a problem with that. It's not even really meant to be negative. One straight man says to a gay man the same thing, and they're friends, and they won't care.

The use of the word "gay" to describe something as "bad" (and I have never seen the word "gay" to be used to describe a good thing), suggests that there is something wrong with homosexuality. So I question the use of the word in that context.

But hey, whatever. You go ahead and be as black as you want. Be blacker than night, I don't care. Be blacker than a goddamn nigger, and continue to be stupid. I don't care, and you won't comprehend that I'm being subsequently insulting to certain people by making this paragraph, naturally.

I have never seen the term, "stop being gay" as to mean, "Stop being so good-looking and intelligent!", and it's often said by one straight person to another. So yes, I question it's usage, especially when used as an insult. I just don't like seeing it crop up everywhere.

I'm not necessarily absolutist about it, I just don't like the word being used as I most commonly see it used. It still suggests that there is something negative about it. Ask Umop, she agrees with me, and probably will be much better at explaining the point.

What evidence do we have of that? Past examples of his behavior and apology show different. Claiming to learn a lesson is not the same as learning it. He can pledge all he wants. I'll believe it when I see it.

Fair enough, I retract that statement.

I've watched the clip, when he was talking about them, the photo came up and he reacted like Whoa, those are some rough looking women. "They even have tatoos." And went on from there vamping on their appearance. I didn't think he was being overtly hostile, I think he was just being boorish, being the asshole he is. I think he was responding to the visual image, it could have been some unknown team from Australia. I did not get the idea he wanted to insult these women in particular, so why did he insult them as a question is to me moot.

He called them "nappy-headed hos", which is taken as a racial slur and a derogatory statement towards women. Even if they could have been any team in particular, that doesn't excuse it.

It's like me calling some team of black men a "bunch of goddamn niggers", even though I just heard about them from television. It doesn't excuse the statement.

[Lance]

Hell, I was called a "Slut 3000"

Excuse me, I have to go use the rank administration control panel

The temptation is amazing.

Wusses.